Happiness and Service

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William Kaede
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Happiness and Service

Post by William Kaede » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:17 pm

In my life I have met those who serve, and mourn their service. They lament it, but continue anyway, feeling obliged to serve others, guilt-ridden if they don't. Theirs is truly a live of servitude, and for some, eventual bitterness. I was once like this; "sworn", to use my own word, to help others... and at what cost? My happiness. My wasted time. And eventually, I withdrew. Screw other people, I'm in it for me now! I kept on like this for awhile. Got my life in order, got my priorities straight... because balance is key here.

I once talked with a novice Jedi, who claimed that true selflessness, the epitome of the Jedi Path, was to act without any self-interest. If you enjoyed helping others, it wasn't selfless, and a betrayal of this tenet of the path. I called him an idiot and carefully explained to him the ways in which he was wrong. I was there for awhile.

There is a Duty to All in the Jedi Compass. One of our tenets states that we act to support our community, to act objectively to help those in need, and be mindful of our actions at all times, as we can affect others without knowing. Just as one can be an inspiration to others, so can one be a depressant to others. But we have a Duty to All; even ourselves.

For if we are not satisfied by helping others, if it doesn't fill us with that warm, fuzzy feeling... why do we do it? Guilt? Pride? Duty? The Knight-Errant of the old times, an icon often mentioned by those in the Path, was sworn to protect the people of his realm. To uphold the weak, to smite the wicked. In simpler times. They were trained well. Their values? Fortitude. Discipline. Responsibility. Our values? The same.

But for all our training, for all our values, they will stand to nought in the face of a life spent dissatisfied. The path should make us happy, not wear us down. It should fill us with joy, not mourning. The same for our work. Passion, happiness, emotion... all part of the human experience. The human race. Being a Jedi doesn't mean rejecting what makes us human. It simply means keeping the human elements in balance, so that we can create a better world for others to live in.

"I find it hard to believe people can truly be on a path they mourn rather than celebrate."
-Khaos
Last edited by William Kaede on Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited typographical error.
Live with some fucking authenticity. Follow your passions, there's nothing grander.

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Micheal
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Micheal » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:59 pm

Two images to present prior to my response.

I went to a get together for my wife's job here a few weeks ago.

Prior to going there, I was told they had 2 sons. One was 22 and had just returned from Afganistan with PTSD. The other was 16.
Both had been fighting with eachother prior to this and were basically being issues for their parents. Dad would go away periodically for work (he blows stuff up, arguably the greatest job ever) so for her all she could do is say wait for dad to get home.

Knowing this, when I showed up, I sat back to watch what was going on. There was no relationship between the parents and the kids. They only spent what time was needed for the parents to bark to the boys but this was it.

Next image.

Last night we watched the story of 'Hook'. For those who have never watched it, it is basically an attempt at a part 2 to Peter Pan. In this case, Hook captures the children of a grown up Peter Pan for the purpose of having a final duel between Hook and Pan.

To make a long story short, Pan is given 3 days to prepare while Hook indoctrinates the children, does not work well on the girl but almost works on the boy.

After the movie, my 16 year old son looked at me and said, "If that were me and Kevin, it would never work".

____________________________________________________________

The difference between enjoying what you do and not. A jedi should enjoy what they do simply because when we do something we like, it takes less energy to do it right.

Usually when someone says they wish to follow the light, it is a given that they appreciate helping others. This is the selfish part of being a Jedi because we do have to perceive a benefit in what we do in order to do it so that we can do it well. And where one can be shown this, each individual has to decide for themselves what is the benefit to them?

The goal of doing this is humility which is perceived to improve perception of life because it takes less to make you happy then if you are not.

As in a humble person takes benefit out of smaller things then one who is arrogant.

An example of what I mean.

I have a female student at the dojo. About 28 or so. When she comes, she demands that her teachers be a specific group of people.

No kids except my son.
And one adult is not allowed to teach her.

The reason why he cannot is because, at least by her words, he rubs her the wrong way. My take on it is this adult is a perfectionist... she is a perfectionist... and he is better in the style. So the two like personalities bump heads with his being dominant simply because he is 'more perfect' at it.

When I state kids, I refer to teenagers of high rank (Normally black belts). Because of her stance, she limits her ability to learn and thereby receive satisfaction for learning our style well. Of course it also causes an inconvenience given that depending on the needs of the dojo that night, a teach her needs to train her might not be leveraged where they can be of greatest benefit to the dojo.
"To find out who rules over you, simply find out who you can't criticize."- Voltaire

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Kregan
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Kregan » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:12 pm

I have a question. why would you ever allow a student to dictate the training conditions in your dojo? Any of my sensai's would have laughed me to scorn if I had tried what she had. I understand that there's a time and place for accommodation, I do not understand why to this level.
What's next to a particle of light? Darkness, of course.

Micheal
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Micheal » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:30 pm

Where I am the chief instructor, I am not the owner of the dojo.
So this is one of the limitations put on me in the role I hold.
"To find out who rules over you, simply find out who you can't criticize."- Voltaire

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Kregan
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Kregan » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:49 pm

I understand.
What's next to a particle of light? Darkness, of course.

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Anirac Morgan
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Anirac Morgan » Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:58 am

Hm... Well, it's self-serving in several ways, I think. Even the idea that we want to make the world a better place, is self-serving, stemming from a wish of wanting to exist in a better world ourselves. I would love to live in a world without hunger, without war or poverty. Generally because this would be a more pleasant world to live in. As it is, reading the news is a painful affair; children blown to bits, families living without a home or a way to better their lifestyle, kids losing their parents spending their life begging or polishing shoes. Knowing about this and seeing this hurts me. It makes me feel depressed. Of course, weren't I empathic and cared about other people, it wouldn't have that effect to begin with. It's naturally human to take action against what hurts us. And that can be done 3 ways; rid yourself of awareness of suffering, grow cold and distant to it, or soothe the pain by doing what you can to contribute to a positive change in the world.

I think part of the light side is not choosing option 1 or 2. To take the subtle balm over the definite cure, in order to aid people who need aid. Which is easier said then done, because it's not likely we'll rid the world of suffering in my lifetime. But that doesn't mean I want to give up hope that one day it will be possible. That we are still evolving as a species.

Is it self-serving? Of course it is, because we are not islands, we are all connected through family, location, emotion, spirit and so on. So, creating peace in the neighborhood serves me as well as everyone else in it. Keeping the peace in the office serves me as well as all of my colleagues. Doing good service at my workplace for the customers create happy customers, and hence serve both them, me and my fellow office workers. Whatever we do or say, and sometimes feel, affects people around us and the environment we're a part of. If we create chaos, that affects all, ourselves included. If we contribute to happiness and peace, that will as well. Me behaving in a good manner, being helpful and serving, caring about people around me, comes back to me as consequence of my behavior, and as good behavior brings back positive consequence, then it's both self-serving, as well as being good for others.

Why I am on the light path? I truly genuinely enjoy peace. I enjoy lack of conflict. I enjoy smiling and seeing other people smile. I do not enjoy seeing suffering. I believe we have the world we create and that if we are not happy with the world we live in or ourselves, then it's our responsibility to make a positive difference. I think ultimately there are too many excuses out there.

And this term "serve", I have found I don't really like it that much, because it's such an empty and static word. Like we're robots. "What can I do for you, sir." We aren't robots. We are a part of an environment and we are aware how our actions and words affect said environment. I don't think we do ourselves any favors by making us sound like outsider robots just ready to serve. If we make ourselves unhappy, then that unhappiness will be negative energy coming from us and affecting people around. I've been on the receiving end of negative energy enough to know that I better serve myself as well, and make sure that I have what I emotionally and spiritually need, lest I become a negative contributor rather than a positive one. This is both self-serving as well as serving the immidiate environment.
"Our prime purpose in this life is to help others.
And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them."

- Dalai Lama -

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Kregan
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Kregan » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:46 pm

Anirac Morgan wrote:Hm... Well, it's self-serving in several ways, I think.
Everything everyone does is in self service. We do things totally for our own pleasure or benefit. Each and every time. If a person feels pain at a choice it's because they want two things but have only discovered a way to have one.

Example: I'm hungry, but my coworker hasn't eaten since yesterday. I give him my sandwich. I now feel the pain of missing lunch but I get the pleasure of helping my co-worker. My self serving may benefit him but it is still and will always be me serving myself.
Anirac Morgan wrote: families living without a home or a way to better their lifestyle,


I know a family that is going to be homeless in a week or so and I feel bad for them because I've been raised that a "good person" feels bad for someone in that situation. My wife wanted to invite them in and I refused her request. We have barely enough to keep us afloat and I don't have the resources to accept and take responsibility for others. So I am turning them away. Me and mine come first. Now would I be willing to share some if I have it? Why? It feels good and puts others in my debt.
Anirac Morgan wrote: It makes me feel depressed.


Why? Were you a bad person who did these things to them? Can you make a phone call and stop it? If not, why depression? Nobody in their "right " mind thinks such things are nice and good. It is sickening. However, being depressed about it is a waste of resources. If you want to do something about it, then do something.

Start a movement, say a prayer, donate some time and money. Take your power and use it. Even if you KNOW you won't be able to change a damned thing. Follow your passion and glory in it. If you're not willing to do something. forget it like a piece of wet newspaper that you see in the street and move on.
Anirac Morgan wrote: But that doesn't mean I want to give up hope that one day it will be possible. That we are still evolving as a species.


That's a pipe dream human nature doesn't change. We are still the exact same assholes we were 100,000 years ago and will be the same assholes 200,000 years from now. Step ladder evolution is a myth. It's not about anything other than survival.
Anirac Morgan wrote: Why I am on the light path? I truly genuinely enjoy peace.


Peace is a lie. Another way to say it is peace is always temporary. It's the best time to prepare for the next battle. but be sure it's coming. I enjoy peace as well but I know that it just an interlude. Example;The only reason we can eat is because somebody some where is killing something and making it available to us. If they weren't doing it we would have to. Life is predicated on death.

People whether at home or office or battlefield only act in some form of self interest. the only way to get cooperation is to find a way to tie their self interests to the actions you desire them to make. And the moment you act in a way perceived as not being in their self interests - conflict!
Anirac Morgan wrote:I think ultimately there are too many excuses out there.


Not excuses, people just don't see how it will serve their self interests to get involved. I'm going to say something harsh and will probably be offensive. I apologize in advance, but as far as I can see it is the truth.

A child being blown to bits has about zero effect on the average person's self interests and therefore they will do nothing about it except feel bad and maybe shed a tear because that is what a "decent person does" when faced with a tragedy that doesn't effect them.

I have a friend whose son is a paramedic. He volunteered to go to a war zone to help the non combatants i.e. the children who have been hurt. He's doing what he can to fix the problem. Oh how wonderful a lot of people would say. I wouldn't. He is serving his self interests.

He gets to feel good for helping others
he gets to travel a bit
he gets to test himself and see what he's made of
He gets paid pretty nice

I'm proud of him as he is embodying values that I value but that pride is felt because I am getting something I want, which is to see more males act like men {men as defined by me of course}.

I see the selfless service to others mind set as foolish. I spent a significant portion of my life doing it and I learned a few things:

To the majority of those you serve you mean nothing. When it is convenient to them they will discard you.

I put my physical body on the line for others and for the majority of them it was either nothing to them or they perceived it as their due. I mean the actual people I was serving not some unnamed large group of people.

It was ok if my family suffered because they paid so little. but they wanted even more service than their contract called for.

One of the only real benefits I received was the sense I was doing something "Noble". It was a lie that allowed me to cause my family to suffer because I felt I was doing a good thing.

The only real actual benefit was a sense of brotherhood with some of those I stood beside. Which felt nice and helped me keep going. It was deceptive too as I should have turned my time and energy elsewhere.

It took me a long time to see how foolish I was. Now, I do what benefits Kregan and any person or cause outside of that is secondary if it even makes the list at all.

My intention here was to share a different outlook and provide some food for thought as well as for discussion. Have a great day.
What's next to a particle of light? Darkness, of course.

Micheal
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Micheal » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:16 pm

And so is shown the arrogance I spoke of earlier. (not focussed on you in particular Kregan with the exception you did provide the impetus of this post, so I will use your words, but only because another example was not displayed)
Note the self valuation while alternately devaluing everyone else.

The difference is not the perception of selflessness vs selfishness. We can argue this for days and it will still end up being each individuals perception.

When we devalue other human beings at the insistence of ourselves is where the difference stands.

People will discard you when it is convenient? 100% right when you keep this perception. When you do not however is when you add people into your life.

Yes, it is easy to talk about the impact that the loss of a child has as being nothing... say that when you have lost a child.
Or more importantly say that to someone not wishing to be a jedi and see how positive of an outcome you get.

Peace is a lie and you enjoy it in brief periods. Thank you for admitting you lie to yourself. It is not a bad thing, we all do it. I think more highly of you because you can state this. The reality of peace is it is a perception. It is not a lie, it is not truth. It is what each of us make it. One can find peace in the middle of a war simply because they found a way to do it. It is not good or bad. I am certain heroin users find peace at the end of a syringe... that does not mean it is good. It is what it is.

All to demonstrate the difference between arrogance and humility. The problem with arrogance being when your personal perceived value does not match how others perceive your value. When you are humble, this does not matter. For you are spending more time seeing the value of others in your life then demanding your life be valuable in theirs.
"To find out who rules over you, simply find out who you can't criticize."- Voltaire

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Kregan
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Kregan » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:54 pm

Hmmm...Interesting thoughts.
Vandor wrote: When we devalue other human beings at the insistence of ourselves is where the difference stands.
That is the difference. To me though, it is a matter of valuing me and mine more than you, rather than diminishing your worth. In other words I'm not saying you are a bad person. I'm saying you are not me and I give the me category much more of my time and resources than I do the you category.
Vandor wrote:People will discard you when it is convenient? 100% right when you keep this perception. When you do not however is when you add people into your life.
When you faithfully serve someone or an organization for several years. Going way above the call of duty and then are dismissed or worse when they no longer have a use for you because they can get someone cheaper or it's politically a good move for them. What would you call it?
Vandor wrote:Yes, it is easy to talk about the impact that the loss of a child has as being nothing... say that when you have lost a child.
Or more importantly say that to someone not wishing to be a jedi and see how positive of an outcome you get.
I've had friends who have lost children and nearly lost one of my own. It is horrible and would wish that on no one. I also understand that the reason it had such a profound effect on me is because it was MY friend's child and MY child. As much as a child dying sucks and I wish it wouldn't happen, It does. In all honesty, it does not affect my emotions any where as much as when it is MY child. That's just the way it goes with me.
Vandor wrote:Peace is a lie and you enjoy it in brief periods. Thank you for admitting you lie to yourself. It is not a bad thing, we all do it. I think more highly of you because you can state this. The reality of peace is it is a perception.
Inner peace is a perception. Patrick Swayze used to say that he felt very peaceful when he was beating people up as a young man studying martial arts. I can have peace in the midst of an outer conflict or even when creating the conflict. I have equipment in my office that can create a peace in my mind within a few seconds. So agreed inner peace is a perception. Outer peace, not so much
Vandor wrote:It is not a lie, it is not truth. It is what each of us make it. One can find peace in the middle of a war simply because they found a way to do it. It is not good or bad. I am certain heroin users find peace at the end of a syringe... that does not mean it is good. It is what it is.
The part of the Sith creed: peace is a lie, I think is badly worded. My understanding has it as peace is temporary. Both inner and outer peace come and go.
Vandor wrote: All to demonstrate the difference between arrogance and humility. The problem with arrogance being when your personal perceived value does not match how others perceive your value. When you are humble, this does not matter. For you are spending more time seeing the value of others in your life then demanding your life be valuable in theirs.
The few people that are in the intimate areas of my life are very valuable to me and I do my best to treat them as such. Yet, I also understand that if I do not pull my weight in these relationships they will eventually end as it will become "Toxic" to them and they would end the relationship no matter how much they loved me. Because it's not in their... wait for it. self-interest to continue it.
I define humility as knowing your place. If you are a master at something then you are and to pretend to be otherwise is false humility. If you are below par in something then to pretend to be otherwise is foolish and arrogant. That doesn't mean that you have to put on airs it is just recognizing were you're at.
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Micheal » Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:20 pm

Kregan wrote:Hmmm...Interesting thoughts.
Vandor wrote: When we devalue other human beings at the insistence of ourselves is where the difference stands.
That is the difference. To me though, it is a matter of valuing me and mine more than you, rather than diminishing your worth. In other words I'm not saying you are a bad person. I'm saying you are not me and I give the me category much more of my time and resources than I do the you category.
We both do the last part of this. Which is spend more time with me and mine then others. But you did make the comment:

"I put my physical body on the line for others and for the majority of them it was either nothing to them or they perceived it as their due."

This is devaluing their perception. To be clear, I am not arguing if this is right or wrong. Hence why I said what I did.
Vandor wrote:People will discard you when it is convenient? 100% right when you keep this perception. When you do not however is when you add people into your life.
When you faithfully serve someone or an organization for several years. Going way above the call of duty and then are dismissed or worse when they no longer have a use for you because they can get someone cheaper or it's politically a good move for them. What would you call it?[/quote]

Challenge accepted.

About 15 years ago, I was let go for this very thing. I found a better job and went on. When it was tried for this job. I got better then them so that they could not explain why I needed to be removed. I am now indespensible so cannot be removed. And the person who tried this last time got rid of herself.
Vandor wrote:Yes, it is easy to talk about the impact that the loss of a child has as being nothing... say that when you have lost a child.
Or more importantly say that to someone not wishing to be a jedi and see how positive of an outcome you get.
I've had friends who have lost children and nearly lost one of my own. It is horrible and would wish that on no one. I also understand that the reason it had such a profound effect on me is because it was MY friend's child and MY child. As much as a child dying sucks and I wish it wouldn't happen, It does. In all honesty, it does not affect my emotions any where as much as when it is MY child. That's just the way it goes with me.
Vandor wrote:Peace is a lie and you enjoy it in brief periods. Thank you for admitting you lie to yourself. It is not a bad thing, we all do it. I think more highly of you because you can state this. The reality of peace is it is a perception.
Inner peace is a perception. Patrick Swayze used to say that he felt very peaceful when he was beating people up as a young man studying martial arts. I can have peace in the midst of an outer conflict or even when creating the conflict. I have equipment in my office that can create a peace in my mind within a few seconds. So agreed inner peace is a perception. Outer peace, not so much

Outer peace I believe you mean being able to give others such. There are times when it is possible... but by and large I agree with you that peace should be a personal choice... if others can give it to you, you yourself have problems.
Vandor wrote:It is not a lie, it is not truth. It is what each of us make it. One can find peace in the middle of a war simply because they found a way to do it. It is not good or bad. I am certain heroin users find peace at the end of a syringe... that does not mean it is good. It is what it is.
The part of the Sith creed: peace is a lie, I think is badly worded. My understanding has it as peace is temporary. Both inner and outer peace come and go.
Vandor wrote: All to demonstrate the difference between arrogance and humility. The problem with arrogance being when your personal perceived value does not match how others perceive your value. When you are humble, this does not matter. For you are spending more time seeing the value of others in your life then demanding your life be valuable in theirs.
The few people that are in the intimate areas of my life are very valuable to me and I do my best to treat them as such. Yet, I also understand that if I do not pull my weight in these relationships they will eventually end as it will become "Toxic" to them and they would end the relationship no matter how much they loved me. Because it's not in their... wait for it. self-interest to continue it.
I define humility as knowing your place. If you are a master at something then you are and to pretend to be otherwise is false humility. If you are below par in something then to pretend to be otherwise is foolish and arrogant. That doesn't mean that you have to put on airs it is just recognizing were you're at.
Being a master means you are aware you have much more to learn. But I digress.

I am aware we will not agree and this is fine. But I wish to point out 1 thing to you.

Where you wish to be selfish, the more selfish you are, the more selfless you wish everyone else was.

Think about it. Selfish people... truly selfish people do not like to share ,they do not play well with others. This is why I change to arrogance because arrogance gives definition to how others can play a part in your life. "I am that good" comes to mind.

But it relies on others buying into it.

I would argue your arrogance hurt your job that you previously quoted where my humility helped me to meet it and overcome it.
As I have been there, I know the need to blame others for our fall. The reality was though I needed to overcome it. Now, I cannot even tell you their name. I remember she had black hair and that was about it. the one who tried, I will remember her name for as long as I live. Not out of anger for her, but looking back to thank her for the challenge she presented. Thankfully I know she now has a good life and is retired.
"To find out who rules over you, simply find out who you can't criticize."- Voltaire

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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Kregan » Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:49 pm

I think a definition of selfishness might help us out a lot . In a lot of ways we are saying the same things but with a different emphasis.

When I think of selfish I think of someone who won't give even though he has more than enough to take care of their own needs and wouldn't even miss it. A selfish person also wants more than premium price for what little they may do.

I am not selfish in that manner.

I am self centered and I also believe that everyone is as well. I will not deprive my children of food so yours can eat. To me, my children are more important to me then yours. I may deny my children going to the movies to feed yours but movies are a luxury not a life necessity. I may even go so far as to give your children my personal dinner as it would be less painful to me than seeing your children go hungry. If I hadn't eaten for a week then your kids would be out of luck. I expect that the average person is more or less the same way.

I no longer make large sacrifices for others. Doing so created conflict within me. So I quit. Now, I make little sacrifices when it pleases me to do so and I am much happier.

How do you define selfishness? Give an example please, as it is a little easier to wrap your mind around an example than a straight definition.
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Micheal » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:02 pm

A selfish person focusses on the personal need before the needs of another.

So in everything you just said, I do not see you as selfish.

I see everything on a scale of one to one hundred.

The most selfish person in the world sits at 1 simply because he cannot convince the rest of the world to bend to his or her needs.
The most selfless sits at 99 simply because he or she cannot convince the rest of the world to accept their help.

The healthy range is from 35ish to 65ish and this is where we are predominantly with the switchover at 50.

I would say that I am at the 55-60 category.
"To find out who rules over you, simply find out who you can't criticize."- Voltaire

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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Kregan » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:24 pm

Vandor wrote:A selfish person focusses on the personal need before the needs of another.

So in everything you just said, I do not see you as selfish.

I see everything on a scale of one to one hundred.

The most selfish person in the world sits at 1 simply because he cannot convince the rest of the world to bend to his or her needs.
The most selfless sits at 99 simply because he or she cannot convince the rest of the world to accept their help.

The healthy range is from 35ish to 65ish and this is where we are predominantly with the switchover at 50.

I would say that I am at the 55-60 category.
Using the scale method I would place myself about 75 to 80. which means that I'm going to focus on getting for me and mine with the caveat that I do not expect others to bend to my needs. It is my problem, not theirs.

I appreciate that others have helped me as I have in turn helped others. I also have the understanding that there is nothing compelling them or myself to do so, therefore I place no faith in it.

If someone helps me great, If not, ok. The only persons that I have any expectation of receiving help from are those I have an alliance with one way or another. Even then, I do not rest on that expectation because no one can fuck you over as easily or as successfully as a friend or loved one.

I am cynical in that regard and it has served me well. I've enjoyed the exchange Vandor.
What's next to a particle of light? Darkness, of course.

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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Micheal » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:34 pm

Kregan wrote: I am cynical in that regard and it has served me well. I've enjoyed the exchange Vandor.
Being cynical is safe, so it normally does. And I to greatly appreciated the exchange.
"To find out who rules over you, simply find out who you can't criticize."- Voltaire

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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by David » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:03 pm

Michael, is this your "coming out of the closet" thread?
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Kregan » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:37 am

I realized I just scalled myself backwards. I am actually at 20 or 25. My bad lol
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by ConnorL » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:00 pm

He's not been closeted for a while. He has accounts at IJRS and TOTJO, studying light side perspectives.

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William Kaede
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by William Kaede » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:50 pm

I think Charles "outed" me a year or so ago when he announced I was officially becoming his apprentice. But that's just me, and I haven't been active in some time.

This piece was something I was giving some thought to after a couple of conversations and a bit of re-reading old forum threads. My current work camp has an internet connection, so I'm able to do a bit more online work for now. I'm moving camps again soon, I believe the next one will have a stable connection as well.

Connor, I had accounts and training materials at those places back when I was David's apprentice. Mind you, at that time I was simply exploring the community and not actively training at those places. Still not training at TOTJO though. :3
Live with some fucking authenticity. Follow your passions, there's nothing grander.

Good vibes and victory

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ConnorL
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by ConnorL » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:33 pm

*shrugs*

Micheal
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Micheal » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:34 pm

Kregan wrote:I realized I just scalled myself backwards. I am actually at 20 or 25. My bad lol
I understood. =)
"To find out who rules over you, simply find out who you can't criticize."- Voltaire

Keheris
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Keheris » Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:02 pm

Michael wrote:But for all our training, for all our values, they will stand to nought in the face of a life spent dissatisfied. The path should make us happy, not wear us down. It should fill us with joy, not mourning. The same for our work. Passion, happiness, emotion... all part of the human experience. The human race. Being a Jedi doesn't mean rejecting what makes us human. It simply means keeping the human elements in balance, so that we can create a better world for others to live in.

"I find it hard to believe people can truly be on a path they mourn rather than celebrate."
-Khaos
I hear you my brother. It should make you happy. And it shouldn't wear you down. Maybe you just gave too much. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't give at all.

It feels good to help others and it should. To give and receive love feels good. Maybe the people you help don't always make you feel loved. That's because they're in their own dark place. But should you hate them for that? I don't think you do.

Maybe you're just not sure if you should be helping them. If you don't feel good about helping them maybe you should be doing something else. You're doubting yourself my brother. And there's no shame in that. How righteous can a man be if he can't pause?

But it did make you feel good once upon a time. But all is about balance too. I think you gave more than you were supposed to give. And now you're leaning back trying to focus on yourself. I think that's what you should be doing. And that's okay then.

If you are meant to help someone you will. But there's a difference between looking for people to help and helping someone when you encounter a person in need.

Ask yourself what the difference is my brother. Either choice makes you a good man. Don't just go thinking you're dark just because you spend some time focusing on yourself. You do right. No reason to punish yourself for it.
A ball... hmm

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Anirac Morgan
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Anirac Morgan » Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:44 am

Kregan wrote:
Everything everyone does is in self service. We do things totally for our own pleasure or benefit. Each and every time. If a person feels pain at a choice it's because they want two things but have only discovered a way to have one.

Example: I'm hungry, but my coworker hasn't eaten since yesterday. I give him my sandwich. I now feel the pain of missing lunch but I get the pleasure of helping my co-worker. My self serving may benefit him but it is still and will always be me serving myself.

I know a family that is going to be homeless in a week or so and I feel bad for them because I've been raised that a "good person" feels bad for someone in that situation. My wife wanted to invite them in and I refused her request. We have barely enough to keep us afloat and I don't have the resources to accept and take responsibility for others. So I am turning them away. Me and mine come first. Now would I be willing to share some if I have it? Why? It feels good and puts others in my debt.

Why? Were you a bad person who did these things to them? Can you make a phone call and stop it? If not, why depression? Nobody in their "right " mind thinks such things are nice and good. It is sickening. However, being depressed about it is a waste of resources. If you want to do something about it, then do something.

Start a movement, say a prayer, donate some time and money. Take your power and use it. Even if you KNOW you won't be able to change a damned thing. Follow your passion and glory in it. If you're not willing to do something. forget it like a piece of wet newspaper that you see in the street and move on.

That's a pipe dream human nature doesn't change. We are still the exact same assholes we were 100,000 years ago and will be the same assholes 200,000 years from now. Step ladder evolution is a myth. It's not about anything other than survival.

Peace is a lie. Another way to say it is peace is always temporary. It's the best time to prepare for the next battle. but be sure it's coming. I enjoy peace as well but I know that it just an interlude. Example;The only reason we can eat is because somebody some where is killing something and making it available to us. If they weren't doing it we would have to. Life is predicated on death.

People whether at home or office or battlefield only act in some form of self interest. the only way to get cooperation is to find a way to tie their self interests to the actions you desire them to make. And the moment you act in a way perceived as not being in their self interests - conflict!


Not excuses, people just don't see how it will serve their self interests to get involved. I'm going to say something harsh and will probably be offensive. I apologize in advance, but as far as I can see it is the truth.

A child being blown to bits has about zero effect on the average person's self interests and therefore they will do nothing about it except feel bad and maybe shed a tear because that is what a "decent person does" when faced with a tragedy that doesn't effect them.

I have a friend whose son is a paramedic. He volunteered to go to a war zone to help the non combatants i.e. the children who have been hurt. He's doing what he can to fix the problem. Oh how wonderful a lot of people would say. I wouldn't. He is serving his self interests.

He gets to feel good for helping others
he gets to travel a bit
he gets to test himself and see what he's made of
He gets paid pretty nice

I'm proud of him as he is embodying values that I value but that pride is felt because I am getting something I want, which is to see more males act like men {men as defined by me of course}.

I see the selfless service to others mind set as foolish. I spent a significant portion of my life doing it and I learned a few things:

To the majority of those you serve you mean nothing. When it is convenient to them they will discard you.

I put my physical body on the line for others and for the majority of them it was either nothing to them or they perceived it as their due. I mean the actual people I was serving not some unnamed large group of people.

It was ok if my family suffered because they paid so little. but they wanted even more service than their contract called for.

One of the only real benefits I received was the sense I was doing something "Noble". It was a lie that allowed me to cause my family to suffer because I felt I was doing a good thing.

The only real actual benefit was a sense of brotherhood with some of those I stood beside. Which felt nice and helped me keep going. It was deceptive too as I should have turned my time and energy elsewhere.

It took me a long time to see how foolish I was. Now, I do what benefits Kregan and any person or cause outside of that is secondary if it even makes the list at all.

My intention here was to share a different outlook and provide some food for thought as well as for discussion. Have a great day.
My apologies this went so long without being answered. I've been away and busy with family, so I haven't been able to stretch to all corners :)
And I have no problem facing a different outlook.

And of course I disagree, lol. Not everything I do is self-serving. A lot of what I do directly or indirectly is, but not all. Genuine selflessness usually lies in the more mundane of actions. Of course giving 10 bucks to a charity is indirectly self-serving, it makes me feel better contributing to the community. However, getting up at 6 AM with the kids so that my mother might get some much needed rest, is not. That's because I love my mother and I want to make her life a bit easier when I can. Buying a magazine from a guy in a charity program is partly self-serving, again making me feel good about participating. However, giving him a hug because he asks for it was a spur of the moment thing, because it made him happy. And besides, I'm a bad example. I am not the most selfless person around, but I've met some really good people, in my time, who I have experienced to be very selfless and compassionate people. Having experienced selflessness, I know it exist and to aspire for it.

And I am doing something about some of the things I can do something about. Could I do more? Not at this particular time, but when I am able to, then I will :) Problem is, we can't always do everything we want to do. For example, sure, I want to move to Gaza and help out as a volunteer, but with my current economical situation that would land me in jail for not being able to pay off my debt. Hence, my good intention wouldn't get me very far. Not to mention my mother is sick, and there's no one else around to take that responsibility if she suddenly lands in the hospital. I would be needed to take care of my siblings. I have responsibilities, so not all I want to do, are things I can do. On other fronts, on the other hand, I can do things. I can actively participate in demonstrations regarding LGBT rights, or other matters that engage me. So I do. I can also add my say in important political demonstrations, and use my vote where I think it'll make a difference. So that I do.

If I didn't have siblings and a sick mother, believe me, I'd be somewhere else entirely, doing something much more worthwhile, whether that landed me in jail or not, lol. But for now, I do what I can, when I can. Besides, I am such a work in progress, focusing on working on/bettering myself is important too. And that is both self-serving, as well as serving for those around me ;)
That's a pipe dream human nature doesn't change. We are still the exact same assholes we were 100,000 years ago and will be the same assholes 200,000 years from now. Step ladder evolution is a myth. It's not about anything other than survival.
Wow. That's cynical, lol! Perhaps you are right. Perhaps I am right. But this isn't a view on the world or the people in it that I want to have. Because that's not what I want for it, or them. I am aiming for the better, ideally, and if you want something, you gotta have the hope that it's possible. Being a terrible idealist at heart, this line of sinking (edit: thinking. Didn't remove the fraudian slip though, because it was fun in context) doesn't float my boat. But if it works for you, then I respect your view on it.

Actually, I have known people who can have peace in some seriously tough battles. Peace is a matter of perspective, and recognizing we cannot always control our surroundings nor our situation, but we can control our inner state. Or at least learn to, lol. I'm working on learning this. Peace is only a lie, if you don't really believe in it. For me, it's not a lie, it's definitely a choice. I would rather have peace than conflict, be that internally or externally. And maybe I can't determine the path ahead nor what needs to be faced on it, but I can find and maintain inner peace, no matter the chaos elsewhere. So, I disagree here as well, but if your way of seeing it works for you, then that's good.

I am not at all offended. You have your experiences which has led to your way of seeing things. I have mine. That difference doesn't need to involve any kind of offence.

I work in the service business, so yeah, I know for some people it doesn't matter what you do, they'll treat you as crap just because they can. Because they consider themselves above you. That's their issue and problem, not mine. I could let that change who I am and how I act. I could give them in return what they give me. Or I could simply do my job and focus on those who instead give positive energy my way, allow this positive energy to refuel me into serving also those who would not give me the same in return, decent treatment and a wave of positive energy. I guess I'm not a quitter. Allowing other people to dictate who I am or how I act isn't really an option, but I allow for positive influence, and reject negative influence. At least that is what I am working on. I am under no delusion that I am always successful with this, but it's a work in progress :)

I respect your view, Kregan, even when I don't agree. And I don't have a problem with people speaking their mind and airing their opinions. In fact, your opinions are fairly similar to that of my sister, lol. She would agree with you 100 % on pretty much everything.
"Our prime purpose in this life is to help others.
And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them."

- Dalai Lama -

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Darth Draconis
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Darth Draconis » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:20 am

Anirac Morgan wrote:Genuine selflessness usually lies in the more mundane of actions. Of course giving 10 bucks to a charity is indirectly self-serving, it makes me feel better contributing to the community. However, getting up at 6 AM with the kids so that my mother might get some much needed rest, is not. That's because I love my mother and I want to make her life a bit easier when I can.
And yet...

Anirac Morgan wrote:That's because I love my mother and I want to make her life a bit easier when I can.
I'm failing to see how it's not self-centric.

Nothing you can do will ever revolve around someone else.

There's a difference between being self-absorbed and being self-centered. There's also a difference between those two things (both categorized hapharzardly by you and Vandor as 'selfish') and 'true selflessness'. The latter is mistakenly believed to be different because of an incomplete awareness. See the above quotes. Self-centric, despite that you're not focusing on the source of your actions.

We're all selfish. Recognizing that is just a matter of self awareness.
HIGH TONED SON OF A BITCH

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Anirac Morgan
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Anirac Morgan » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:50 pm

Hm.. I definitely do see your point. It's just that in my head when stating that statement, different words are in bold, like mother and her life and easier. She's the object of importance in this context, I'm simply the subject carrying out an action, hence the I isn't what matters in that situation. The same sitation at work, where I might do something my co-worker is supposed to do because I know that she is stressed and has too much to do. The other person is the object that matters in the context, whereas I am just the subject doing what needs to be done. It's fully possible to see another person and how they feel/gain more than you see yourself and your needs or gain in the moment, still disagreeing on that though.

Of course, like I wrote up in my post, this isn't always the case, sometimes the I is indeed the object my focus is on, and I'll be more on what my action will do for me, or give me in return, and less on where I intended it to be. But I'm not perfect :P

If you don't think it's possible for your life to revolve around someone else, you should try being a mother, lol. I remember that my mother was so stressed and tired and engulfed in the newborn sister of mine that she actually forgot stuff like eating. Not tending to her own needs at all, neither physical nor emotional. We literary had to remind her to take care of herself 24/7. When you start neglecting your own needs due to the needs of others, then you are definitely not focused on the self.
"Our prime purpose in this life is to help others.
And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them."

- Dalai Lama -

Micheal
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Re: Happiness and Service

Post by Micheal » Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:10 pm

Darth Draconis wrote:There's also a difference between those two things (both categorized hapharzardly by you and Vandor as 'selfish') and 'true selflessness'.
As this is the area you decided to debate... please point to the area where I state someone can be truely selfless?

I actually pointed out that regardless of selfish or selfless intentions, the act can look the same. So IF you perceive it as selfish, that speaks to only you.
"To find out who rules over you, simply find out who you can't criticize."- Voltaire

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