Great Holocron Update?

Moderator: Public Forum Moderators

TambelSadera
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:49 am

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by TambelSadera » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:45 pm

I never said anything about being a historian, i was referring to their personality. Other than that all I've done is analyze, point out repeating history, and ask a very simple question. In the type who listens rather than speaks. All i asked was a basic question that immediately got rude answers and countered with the same. *shrug* but my answer has been answered. Good day and good bye.

User avatar
Setanaoko
Posts: 8601
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:16 am
Location: Greenville, SC
Contact:

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by Setanaoko » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:35 pm

VixensVengeance wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:41 pm
Setanaoko wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:08 pm
Not at the moment, but it is the model we are building right now.
What is the function of that? Where will the profits go?
TambelSadera wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:08 pm
Every group once it gets so large begins looking for ways to make money..... I'm firmly convinced its a human condition. As to who i am: I'm always there. Watching from the background, reading the files, rarely speaking. Think of it this way: in the movies I'm that Jedi archivist in the background that no one ever talks to, but who observes everything. And perhaps i should rephrase what i said about Jedi Compass: it's a shame it refers only to the light, but hills nothing of shadows or dark. Personally i feel that all this spreading of information on the light without shadow and dark is an imbalance. I also find it a shame that even the Jedi community is falling into the trap of seeking money and power in exchange for their knowledge. I had hoped for better. Good day
Quoting you calls your attention to the post, which is why I've included Tambel ;)

Jedi Gatherings are getting more expensive to handle, and we recognize that Jedi in general have difficulty being able to afford to attend. So we do our best to keep prices as low as we can. Armonia hopes to help alleviate those costs, and establish a European Jedi Gathering group (in the US we've had them since about 2004, if I recall correctly- though I could be wrong, I didn't make one until 2012). So that's what we are hoping to do with the money. We are also looking forward to a possibility (if we find that the course work is valuable enough to charge such) of sending funds to a charitable organization each year. But we're not going to leave our teachers high and dry either. The amount of effort we each hope to put forward will hopefully be more than we do now.

The truth is, people value their money. It's a sad truth that the Jedi Community is falling before our eyes. People just do not put forth the effort they use to when Sotunus and I first came into the scene (I came in in 2002, and the time that people really put valuable thought forth ended around 2008). We hope that with the introduction of a paid system, people will actually be interested in learning the material. And hey, like the Jedi Compass, Setanaoko's School for Jedi: The Uninitiated and the Force Realists Meditation Journal, it will go towards something worthwhile.
Gather at the River,
LJM Alethea


You are not powerless, you just need to get creative. -Me

User avatar
VixensVengeance
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:12 pm

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by VixensVengeance » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:15 am

Setanaoko wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:35 pm
Jedi Gatherings are getting more expensive to handle, and we recognize that Jedi in general have difficulty being able to afford to attend. So we do our best to keep prices as low as we can. Armonia hopes to help alleviate those costs, and establish a European Jedi Gathering group (in the US we've had them since about 2004, if I recall correctly- though I could be wrong, I didn't make one until 2012). So that's what we are hoping to do with the money. We are also looking forward to a possibility (if we find that the course work is valuable enough to charge such) of sending funds to a charitable organization each year. But we're not going to leave our teachers high and dry either. The amount of effort we each hope to put forward will hopefully be more than we do now.

The truth is, people value their money. It's a sad truth that the Jedi Community is falling before our eyes. People just do not put forth the effort they use to when Sotunus and I first came into the scene (I came in in 2002, and the time that people really put valuable thought forth ended around 2008). We hope that with the introduction of a paid system, people will actually be interested in learning the material. And hey, like the Jedi Compass, Setanaoko's School for Jedi: The Uninitiated and the Force Realists Meditation Journal, it will go towards something worthwhile.

Interesting, sounds like a noble cause. As for the whole dying out thing, have you ever considered the concept that its simply a fad that is now beginning to outlive its interest? The paid system might do more to kill the community than revive it in that case.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it?
I AM the Force Ghost of Mortose.

User avatar
Setanaoko
Posts: 8601
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:16 am
Location: Greenville, SC
Contact:

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by Setanaoko » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:52 pm

It's something I've noticed. LOADS of people want to claim to be Jedi, they join our facebook pages and engage in menial conversations, hash out the same old questions etc. Our offline groups actually have a great deal more success than our forum based groups. So it's our hope that maybe people can take the information they learn from the paid model to develop offline groups.

There's another group that is looking to become a Religious Non-Profit, and after going through training with us at Armonia, that group will have the ability to ordain (those which pursue our Mystic program) the individual if they pass their trials. So it's a work in progress. We'll see what happens, things are moving in different directions. It might very well be that the Community is actually dying off- but it might also be a matter of little in the way of valuable interaction- which Armonia hopes to resolve.
Gather at the River,
LJM Alethea


You are not powerless, you just need to get creative. -Me

User avatar
Luciana
Posts: 697
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by Luciana » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:16 pm

Setanaoko wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:52 pm
It's something I've noticed. LOADS of people want to claim to be Jedi, they join our facebook pages and engage in menial conversations, hash out the same old questions etc. Our offline groups actually have a great deal more success than our forum based groups. So it's our hope that maybe people can take the information they learn from the paid model to develop offline groups.
I think a lot of the community "dying" has to do with the way the internet evolved. Back in the late '90s, early Millennium, social media didn't really exist. You had a few sites you "really" belonged to - a Livejournal, a Myspace, maybe a handful of forums you frequented, probably at least one online roleplay site - and you'd log in after school and really get into it for a few hours, but that was kind of that. The people who sat online all day were kinda sad and pitied, because you had to be unemployed/ have no life or friends, to be sitting online all day.

These days, I don't think people really "sit down" to check the forums in the same way. They glance at everything on their phone, rattle off a few quick sentences, and they do that throughout the day. That's the social media culture that exists now. We're all basically distractedly-driving through life, and it affects interaction in places like this that have historically depended on the reception of a little more attention.

Offline will always be different in that regard. A paid model might work. People tend to pay attention to the places they spend money; well, some people do, sometimes.
The Dark Lady | www.orderofthesith.org

User avatar
VixensVengeance
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:12 pm

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by VixensVengeance » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:29 pm

Sounds like the force community is running into the same problem that most spiritual communities do - that of the arm chair mystic. This is one thing the Christian communities do so well. Taking these people that want to be called Christian but have no real desire to live as a Christian or do the work of the lifestyle and gathering them together in groups appropriately called "flocks" and make them feel guilty enough to give up money so that they can feel better about their lack of commitment.

Pagan groups do the same thing. Paganism centers on the idea that everyone is a priest or priestess and have a direct line to deity, you just have to do the work. Of course the concept does not reflect the practice and you end up with the majority of the community being pagan in name only but not really expressing what it truly means. So what your starting to see are more and more clergy based groups with flocks of their own vs true covens.

I wonder if the young path of force realism is starting to experience that now. Best time to get in on the ground floor of a potentially booming business adventure right? Rife grounds for corruption and false prophets, so to speak. There is a certain exchange of energy by giving money for enlightenment but I also see it as a place of great potential for cheapening the process. Those with the money will always pay for the privilege of title and those without the money will end up forging the path on their own but being void of guidance from those who came before them.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it?
I AM the Force Ghost of Mortose.

User avatar
Luciana
Posts: 697
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by Luciana » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:46 pm

VixensVengeance wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:29 pm
There is a certain exchange of energy by giving money for enlightenment but I also see it as a place of great potential for cheapening the process. Those with the money will always pay for the privilege of title and those without the money will end up forging the path on their own but being void of guidance from those who came before them.
That's the main reason I don't mind the community "dying," so to speak - or see any need to take the Sith down this particular road.

The Sith have always been interested in cultivating the unique, the individual, the "best of the best," rather than farming a huge flock of sheep, and if people don't even have the discipline to keep themselves from being distracted by every shiny Facebook group that pops up, I've got no time for them.

I also have no problem with suffering a loss of activity as a result of my expectations on the students. Better that, than to see the Path watered down, in my opinion.

But there have always been significantly less Sith than Jedi, even in the fiction - because in certain things, we are unyielding, and that does not sit well with people who are used to being able to shape a Path to be what they want it to be, rather than allow a Path to transform and define them.
The Dark Lady | www.orderofthesith.org

User avatar
Khaos
Posts: 6307
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by Khaos » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:59 pm

Forums should never become so focal to the existence of such movements.

They are not load bearing structures, merely resources.

Once you start building them up into things that are support structures, well, they cannot handle that load.

Nothing is "dying" that is simply dramatics at work.

You need only look around, people are doing things in several different mediums, and while the interactions here are valuable, they are not so singular I could not get them offline.

My social circle, on any level, is not dependent upon a forum

Activity always waxes and wanes in these places.

I myself use chat quite often, and enjoy that medium, as opposed to posts on a forum.

Or podcasts, as opposed to written lectures.

At one time, you only had so many choices, and that is not the case anymore .

Forums are not dead, they are simply used differently.

I can only imagine "activity" equating to aliveness is only stressing those who log in every half hour, or sooner to see new posts.

So its not a beehive of activity, that in and of itself means nothing.

Go to a place like TotJo, and you see they have spent pretty much their whole day responding to posts that in the end, have gone nowhere.

You can look busy and not be getting anything done.
Image

User avatar
VixensVengeance
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:12 pm

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by VixensVengeance » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:12 pm

Outstanding! That's what I like to hear luciana and Khaos. It's one of the very reasons (not the only one) that I am immediately drawn to the dark path. It's about quality and not quantity. I would rather find those two individuals in my entire life to be disciple to and mentor of than ever be a member of a herd or shepard over a flock. That herd mentality has never produced excellence in any endeavour of life. It is the individual that stands out that creates change. The group only creates mediocrity, stagnation and eventually death.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it?
I AM the Force Ghost of Mortose.

User avatar
Rickie
Posts: 1510
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 5:53 pm
Location: Earth, most of the time.

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by Rickie » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:23 pm

Go to a place like TotJo, and you see they have spent pretty much their whole day responding to posts that in the end, have gone nowhere.
That's a problem with many communities/organizations and there is not much you can do about it. Freedom vs structure, moderation vs randomness, focus vs tangents.
"Very few things here are as you think" David

User avatar
Killing Time
Posts: 2011
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:57 pm

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by Killing Time » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:09 pm

VixensVengeance wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:12 pm
It is the individual that stands out that creates change. The group only creates mediocrity, stagnation and eventually death.
I find that only those who are prone to mediocrity fear the collective. Why else fear a collective (the macro)?

I see that kind of thinking as excuse making. Blame your fear of self mediocrity (your failures, its a hard knock life etc) on something external. A collective.

Also nothing that lives can stagnate. And all that lives has to one day die. Both of which are currently inescapable.
"work in progress..."

"Renovate Animos" - Family motto

><><><><><><>

User avatar
VixensVengeance
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:12 pm

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by VixensVengeance » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:18 pm

Killing Time wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:09 pm
I find that only those who are prone to mediocrity fear the collective. Why else fear a collective (the macro)?

I see that kind of thinking as excuse making. Blame your fear of self mediocrity (your failures, its a hard knock life etc) on something external. A collective.

Also nothing that lives can stagnate. And all that lives has to one day die. Both of which are currently inescapable.
Really? Well I find that kind of thinking idiotic. What I describe is finding excellence in spite of the collective, not failure as a result of it. Did I say anything about fear? I am a creature of excellence not because of the masses but in spite of them. I do not conform, I find my own path and that is not a path of fear from retribution, it is a path of defiance of the norm no matter the consequence and no matter the popular opinion because it is what I believe. And I don't need conformation in that belief as the pack does because i have the confidence in myself to believe in myself despite anyone else's opinion.

By definition the mass breeds the average. Those of the mass don't want to stand out because of fear. Fear of rejection and fear of losing comfort found in the pack. It is in separating yourself from the pack that excellence is manifested. I'm sorry that a byproduct of that is that others follow you but its just the way it is. People recognize excellence in others and want to associate themselves with that because they want to be a part of that but are unwilling to undertake the responsibility on themselves. So they let others do it for them. That's how the collective is formed - by masses following excellence. Those that are followed are not fearful of that mass by any means. They accept it is a consequence, sometimes wanted and sometimes not but never shunned - instead always nurtured and protected even in spite of the packs often times skewed perception.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it?
I AM the Force Ghost of Mortose.

User avatar
Snowy Aftermath
Posts: 917
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:04 pm
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by Snowy Aftermath » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:34 pm

VixensVengeance wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:18 pm
By definition the mass breeds the average.
You cannot truly hone a skill until you take it away from isolation and into the street to see how you fare. You have, yourself, on this very site even, already fought through peers to get into the DA and currently fight to earn a top position inside our tiny collective. You've already made it through several doors of competition, so at least be honest with yourself about your intentions here. To pretend it all means nothing to you is frivolous, and to be blunt, a bit stupid (I'll save you the suspense, nobody is fooled either, so cut the crap... it saves time :)). If all you care about is expressing your unique independence and how much of a special little creative free-thinker you are, why would you bother with any of this?

Can you handle clawing your way to the top of the mass or do you need to be alone, special, uncriticized, singing to yourself in the mirror? Right now it sounds to me like you're the one who is fearful of a challenge.
Those that are followed are not fearful of that mass by any means.
Not fearful, no... but aware of the ability of a mass to crush the one they've turned against if they stop channeling the collective into the right diversions and cotton candy sinkholes. If there's one thing a mass is, it is stupid. So how much more extra-stupid is it to run away and hide in the playground of your own mind (or excuse me... "be a nonconformist") because you can't seem to master reality?

That's rhetorical.

Carry on.
- Head of the Dark Aspect -

TambelSadera
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:49 am

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by TambelSadera » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:26 am

Hmmm, charging for it is a double edged sword (helps pay for events etc, but also keeps the material from people who can't afford it....), but worth giving it a try i suppose. If it works, might improve the quality of the members. I quite agree with Lucianas post. Oh, and i do apologize for any confusion on my earlier posts. My friends have been telling me for years my speech patterns can be quite misleading to anyone that doesn't know me very well (and like i said im a ghost, so I've never actually tried to post before. I'm currently trying to get more active, but looks like I'm deffinently going to have to adjust my speech patterns....). I shall try to remedy that in the future :) In the meantime I'm curious to see where this leads, this topics responses have gotten quite interesting. And I finally found a copy of the Jedi Compass, good read, seems to be a..... amalgam showing the similarities between each group. And i believe that concludes my catching up....

...... I was wrong. Any suggestions as to where to look for news on American Jedi gatherings? I find alot on UK ones...... thanks!

User avatar
Setanaoko
Posts: 8601
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:16 am
Location: Greenville, SC
Contact:

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by Setanaoko » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:36 am

I’m actually running the US based 2018 annual gathering, I should be able to begin advertising soon, as it is another member of the community I’m coordinating with to secure the location. ^^
Gather at the River,
LJM Alethea


You are not powerless, you just need to get creative. -Me

User avatar
Raven
Posts: 4498
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:47 pm

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by Raven » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:12 pm

TambelSadera wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:26 am
Hmmm, charging for it is a double edged sword (helps pay for events etc, but also keeps the material from people who can't afford it....),
People always find a way to afford what's important to them. They will go out and buy a $4 coffee everyday at Starbucks and claim they don't have the money to do something real for themselves, but they won't give up the expensive coffee. They aren't victims they are choosing the coffee (among other things).
TambelSadera wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:26 am
My friends have been telling me for years my speech patterns can be quite misleading to anyone that doesn't know me very well...
I'm currently trying to get more active, but looks like I'm deffinently going to have to adjust my speech patterns....). I shall try to remedy that in the future :)
As to this:
Don't try, DO!
Keep posting your thoughts as often as often as possible and practice becoming clear. You do this by reading peoples replies to you and instead of getting all defensive when people don't understand, rephrase and try again. You will only get better if you are open to changing. Your defensiveness is what's hurting you right now. Take the confusion of others as a lesson, instead of an attack.

Look forward to seeing you post more.
--Raven
Shadow Master

Your vision will become clear
only when you look into your heart.
Who looks outside, dreams.
Who looks inside, awakens.

--Carl Jung

User avatar
VixensVengeance
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:12 pm

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by VixensVengeance » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:23 am

Snowy Aftermath wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:34 pm
You cannot truly hone a skill until you take it away from isolation and into the street to see how you fare. You have, yourself, on this very site even, already fought through peers to get into the DA and currently fight to earn a top position inside our tiny collective. You've already made it through several doors of competition, so at least be honest with yourself about your intentions here. To pretend it all means nothing to you is frivolous, and to be blunt, a bit stupid (I'll save you the suspense, nobody is fooled either, so cut the crap... it saves time :)). If all you care about is expressing your unique independence and how much of a special little creative free-thinker you are, why would you bother with any of this?

Can you handle clawing your way to the top of the mass or do you need to be alone, special, uncriticized, singing to yourself in the mirror? Right now it sounds to me like you're the one who is fearful of a challenge.
I think you misunderstand my intent here. I have never said it means nothing to me or that I consider myself special, as in better, than anyone else. We are all unique in our own ways and we all have talents and skills that set us apart from one another and provide us autonomy and independence. None of those things make us superior though. In fact without the contrast of diversity there would be no standard of measurement for challenge in any way. I am not advocating separation from the mass but integration with the mass as just another necessary component of functionality. The wolf pack has its alpha to be sure but it also must have its beta and gamma and omega or the role of the alpha becomes not only useless but meaningless.

Is the alpha better than the omega? Yes of course in some ways but also not in some ways. The difference in the two roles is not only the willingness but also the talent and skillset of the alpha to take responsibility not only for self but for the pack as a whole. To set the example for all others. This is actually not done solely through power or strength but also through submission. The willingness to not only take the glory for successes of the pack but also the accountability for the packs wellbeing and the responsibility for failures of the pack as a whole. This is a uniquely singular role that is one of constant challenge because of these many subtle facets. It’s about seeing a need and being willing to be the one to step from the shadows to facilitate the fulfillment of that need for the mass through the organization of resources and the execution of a plan.

This is the excellence that I strive for. And yes you are correct, this type of management is not one where I can run and hide and it is not one in which I will be rewarded for abuses against the mass or boasts of superiority. I know I can’t stand on the mountain and bark my praises and sip tea. That only breeds contempt and resentment and ultimately failure. I have to be in the middle of things and do the dirtiest work, be willing to do any task I would ever ask of others. And to be sure, when I refer to “the Mass” I refer not only to external entities but my own internal masses of my mind. I as much fight to maintain an excellence internally as I do externally. In these sorts of individual challenges I manage the resources of my own body and spirit against the needs and goals I have personally set for myself. This is the example I strive to set in my endeavors here as well as every aspect of my life.

I believe that if I don’t take charge in this way of my own path and be willing to boldly step out to seize or create opportunity, accept risk and never fear loss but embrace it as a path to growth then I relegate myself to that middle place in the pack where I can be safer in the shadows. But by doing this I also allow others to take those opportunities from me and that leaves me with no choice but to settle for the lesser spoils of victory as they filter down. This is something I'm not willing to do. I will play nice when its play time, but I will fight when its time to fight for what I want. Contention is a natural companion to challenge and I welcome that wholeheartedly.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it?
I AM the Force Ghost of Mortose.

User avatar
VixensVengeance
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:12 pm

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by VixensVengeance » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:36 pm

The TLDR version:
I always strive to exceed the expectations of those few who have come before me as I follow in their footsteps of excellence and I always try to set the example of achievement for those few that will come after me that are up to the challenge. This is not what separates me from the pack but what distinguishes me within the pack.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it?
I AM the Force Ghost of Mortose.

User avatar
Rickie
Posts: 1510
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 5:53 pm
Location: Earth, most of the time.

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by Rickie » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:58 pm

Setanaoko wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:36 am
I’m actually running the US based 2018 annual gathering, I should be able to begin advertising soon, as it is another member of the community I’m coordinating with to secure the location. ^^
Do you have a link, location or date?
"Very few things here are as you think" David

User avatar
Setanaoko
Posts: 8601
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:16 am
Location: Greenville, SC
Contact:

Re: Great Holocron Update?

Post by Setanaoko » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:35 pm

The person securing the location had to contend with his basement getting flooded this weekend, so until I get the location secured I'm not releasing ANY information. Everything hinges on the location.
Gather at the River,
LJM Alethea


You are not powerless, you just need to get creative. -Me

Post Reply